Underplaying??

I wouldn't be too worried about overplaying. If the crowd is digging your sound and your bandmates are happy with your playing, it's all good. Besides, anything sounds like over-playing when you come on after a boring bass player. It all depends on the music you're playing, though. If you're playing music that's mostly bass-driven, like funk or reggae, you've gotta groove quite a bit to keep the music flowing. If you're playing punk rock, it's probably a good idea to underplay, or you'll make everyone else in the band look bad.

i'll agree with MrMellow there. I say, your overplaying if you find yourself getting out of time, or its just way over doing it, and it just doesnt click with the song.

Absolutely not.  I've had people praise me for the way I play Sedated(Ramones) which just baffles me.  I cut my teeth on country bass and the only thing I add are some runs,...nothing special.  I'd fall asleep if I had to play it the original way.  

The pocket is important, but there's nothing wrong with pushing it now and then.  

I've gone back and forth on this topic myself...underplaying, overplaying... but I've discovered that there is a time and a place for both.  

If anyone has the book The Perfect Way to Play Bass  then I wanna read it and tell the author they're full of poopy!  

I'll overplay on songs and underplay on others.  I like to think of myself as disciplined, but screw em.  Music is about emotion and music should never be considered wrong,..art is art.

Sorry if I'm a bit emotional,... my band has just parted ways and my football team just won in overtime...

next time just record the gig,wait a day or two and then listen to it,you'll know if you did the songs justice or not,just try to be objective and not beat your-self up

i don't quite know if i'm a pocket player or not. i just try to add something constructive to a song. whether its something simple so i don't clutter a song or something not quite so simple to make a song (more) interesting. i think its a song by song call.

in my band, a majority of the songs already existed (drum, guitar and some vocals), minus bass lines. for the most part, i was free to come up with whatever i felt would do the trick. hell, most of these are still evolving, and we've been together for a year now. the most challenging thing about these songs is figuring out something to play to existing drum AND guitar parts as opposed to helping mold both of these parts at the same time i am coming up with bass parts when we are now writing a song from scratch with all 3(4) instruments. that's not to say some of the older songs didn't change after i joined.

some of our new stuff started out with drums and bass, whereas some started out as drum and guitar or guitar and bass. or all 3 as well.

there is only one song to date where i have been asked to play something simple and i am still working on this part so it sounds good. this song existed before i joined the band and is actually one of the earliest ones written (in some previous incarnation of the band).

i wouldn't worry about being too busy of a player. if some other ugly just wants to play 8's on the root all night, let him. that just gives you more opportunities to show the versatility of the instrument and your ability to hold down the groove. and if your bandmates aren't complaining i would guess you are doing exactly what you need to be doing.

its a hard call on how to lock with the drummer and make the guitar player sound good, errr i mean hold it all together.

I tend to think I'm overplaying but no on ever complains about it. There are just those moments in a song when I can hear something in my head and I have to duplicate it... you know, HATE those empty spaces. But then again there's those songs where lying low just works, and less is way more. I don't know, I second-guess myself on everything anyway, but if no one's complainging about it....

i'm gonna have to agree with kjt.get a rough recording, at best, and listen to it a few days later and see.maybe ask another ugly that knows the song and see what they think

Old rule of thumb (Bass = Thumb...ha!) that was bestowed upon me by Mr. Paul Loranger some while back was to Play with feel, pocket, precision, and tone...the Bass is the bridge to the rest of the band...proper emotion and dynamic is also important... With that, if you and your drummer are in the groove, don't question yourself, just let it flow!

I think with regards to over/under playing... its what separates good bass players from great players... the ability to discern when to play more... and when to play less... or when to play les (claypool)

I think it can also be called taste or an ear Some people just have no taste nor an ear for what sounds good...

The actual rule of thumb marc was a little different...

You used to be allowed to beat your wife and children with a stick... as long as the stick was no thicker than your thumb...

(learned that on the movie Boondock Saints... great Irish movie...)

I think it is very difficult to determine if your playing is over or under until you listen to the band.  You're definitely overplaying if you are making it difficult to hear the main lyric or melody of  the song.

Unfortunately for us most of the time the main melody is some other  instrument.  If we don't provide the needed musicality we're hurting the song.  You are usually hurting the song by playing too much. Seldom do you hurt the song by playing too little.

I think some songs have to breathe and the bass should let that happen as well as provide forward motion to the song at the same time.  That's why the bass is really at the center of the song...Bridging the gap between rhythm and melody

There is no clear answer to this question, because different types of music have different goals in relaying messages.  One thing to be sure of... If it didn't groove, the  others would let you know

dam it slade - that's gotta be the most difficult question that i have read on this forum –
my heroes are all overplayers i guess – Jack the Bruce, Jack Cassidy, Phil Lesh, Stanley, Jaco, Squire,  - i’m not a big Rush fan but man  - Mr. Lee can play his arse off – are they in the pocket???  JB on “Crossroads” ?? that’s some nice work -  he overplayed so much on that tune it pushed Eric to play one of his best recorded live solos - EVER.
For my current band  - Flamin’ Harry and the Roadhouse Rockers  [URL=http://www.flamminharry.com ]
- the pocket comes first -  add the zip when you can  - and then listen to the live recordings (as mentioned above by kjt – on point dude)
you will most likely review your playing very harshly – I do - as i get older and music delayers it’s self to me – i play less notes in more defined places – God that sounds a bit pretentious don’t it now?? – there’s a time for flair and a time to groove  - so hard to make the right choices – hey – Lead; Follow or get the fu*k out of the way – also known as the serenity prayer - it also sounds like things you say to your lead twanger wankers - haha
 
God grant me the serenity to accept the riffs I can’t change; (cover tunes)
The courage to change the riffs I can; (originals)
and the wisdom to know the difference.

I, myself, am a feel/ support player. Then again, I'm working w/a drummer who hasn't a clue about Dynamics or Feel. I hate playing with him! I step out when needed. But, it's sleepytime for me. So, I'll leave y'all w/this... Overplay, Underplay, Fill it up, Leave it open. Do what you do! Play what's in your heart! Let everyone-else worry about what they're doing musically!! keep it sub-sonic!!

I tend to have to guard against overplaying (too many notes).  No one has said anything to me about it, I just catch myself trying to fill in too much of the rhythm sometimes.  I think it comes from 3 things:
1.  I started out as a trumpet player -- now, in case you don't know, the only people that rival the egos and need for speed of g&^*#r players are trumpet players;
2.  I went for a long time not playing with a band, so as I played along with a song, I would cross parts to the point that I was doing all fills;
3.  I'm fairly impulsive.  

I just listen over and over again to the originals of the songs I'm covering to compare what I'm playing to those lines to make sure I'm not overdoing it.  On original tunes or arrangements, I just make sure that I'm leaving room for the rest of the band, and for the dramatic gaps.

I do my best not to overplay but like most of us uglies am not sure I don't. A good portion of our songs are written on the bass so those songs tend to be alot busier...the songs the singer and twanger write always have a much more subdued bassline.

I'm with Bongo, That's the best question I've heard in a long time... It's also the most impossible to fully answer. Here's my feeling on it: Stinky knows best... ask the drummer.

There are times to get 'busy', and times (most of the time) to lay low. What seperates the men from the boys is knowing when to do each. Every now and then my drummer asks me to lay back a bit more (I've been blessed with some great drummers) and I try my hardest to take heed. Then during a break at a gig, a woman asked me Are you just going to keep time for that man (pointing to the guitar player) all night? She then said I know you can play, I heard your solo. Why are you playing such simple stuff? I said It's my job (which I believe completely). You can't please everybody.

I got a Victor Wooten video for x-mas (from stinky). He goes into the fact that notes are only one part of music. They are, unfortunately, the part that most uglies focus on. He asks you to list the other parts that you can think of... (he lists a few; rest, note length, rhythm, etc..) he calls these theings 2 through 10. They he says If you could only use one note in a solo, could you make an interesting solo using 2 through 10? If you think you're over playing, try to concentrate more on 2 through 10. Give yourself only the root and five for the whole song, and make the song groove like it's never grooved.

I know my thoughts are a bit fragmented, but I really could write a book on overplaying vs underplaying. I'm sure we all have enough opinions to do so....

Nothing worse than a bass player that couldn't quite hack being a guitar player , in my book.  One of my favorite acecdotes comes to mind:  The band I play most with has been around in various forms for over twenty years and I've been there the last twelve.  Several years ago we were playing a gig for corporate event or wedding reception, basically another one nighter.  It was the end of the third set and someone called out Old Time Rock and Roll.  I've had to play this song at every gig since I was four, at least it seems that way, but it never fails to get the crowd on their feet.  Rather than trudge through the standard version the drummer and I took it upon ourselves to make it more interesting, ala Tower of Power meets Living Color doing Johnnie B. Goode at the Grammies.  Not a soul graced the dance floor.  No one recogonized the tune!  How do I know?  The begining of the next set we played it again, but as written.  The floor was packed.  What did I learn that night?  No one was there to see the world's greatest rhythym section that night, they were there to do the Macarena and the Electric Slide.  On the flip side of that coin, one of my side projects plays a killer ska version of that same song that kicks butt, but that's a different crowd.  The word of the day: appropriateness.  Play to your crowd not over them.

Very true. But there you enter the balancing act between being satisfied musically, and putting food on the table. I think there's a difference between playing what is needed and playing what's on the record. I've never played exactly what's on the record (although I try to cop Jamersons line as close as possible on the Gladys Knight version of 'Grapevine'). Some songs I play simpler and some I play with a bit of pepper. I was in a casuals band for a while where they expected me to play exactly what was on the records, and eventually I had to quit.

I remember a few years ago there was a band of famous old rockers doing a tour where they only did Beatles covers (I can't remember the name of the project). The Ox was the bass player, and when an interviewer asked him if he was going to stay true to Paul's lines, he said F__K Paul's lines, I'm not Paul..

I think the point really is that rather than play all the notes we can to be the center of attention, we should try to make them completely unaware that we are the reason they can't stop moving their asses.

I'm just starting to really learn how to play the Bass but I've always loved Bass. Of course my favorite bands include Primus(anything claypool), Five Fingers of Funk, and many more along these lines. I'd have to say that I'd rather listen to a kick@$$ bass player with a mediocre rythym guitar than anything.

So in MHO, if it's bass and it sounds good it's not overplaying. If it's sloppy than it is.

(right now for me playing 1/4 note scales @ 20 bpm is overplaying

this underplaying overplaying is tough call, the first thing on the line is 'what do you want to do yourself/with the band'. Enough bands evolve around a strong bassline that has a lot of funky stuff in 'em, like primus, bands like mudvayne and so on.

Now I still believe as a musician, especially bassplayers should be adaptable to change their playing / style into something appropriate with the tunes you play, as for starters, right now I'm in a metalcore band, this means I play mostly rythm based lines most of the time that are the same as the twanger, BUT I get my kicks here and there...your own personal thing for the band. THIS IS NOT SHOWING OFF but getting some stuff in you believe is neccesary, as long as it sounds good and true to the music.

I don't believe you can underplay, you can't even play funk and underplay :P and if one of those other uglies looks wierd at you, he's probably jealous of your skillz, although I thought only twangers had that disease

I try to give the song what it needs in terms of low end. If the stinky is bustin' it on the kick, I lay back and play the ones.
If he's just keeping time, I busy up my lines some.

+1 to that. I try to record any show I play for that very reason. The guys I play with sometimes think that I am going a bit overboard with that and I just enjoy being hard on myself, but I think it is the best tool to find out if my timing is good and if I am over / under playing the songs. recording those gigs helps me step back and listen to myself, and that is the only way I feel a can make an educated judgement on how I am playing some songs.

I guess I don't know what a pocket is. Anyone wanna let me in on that one?

I dig those busy basslines that really drive the song, like John Entwistle's lines and I dig those simpler lines you play when your just grooving in the pocket. I gotta keep things interesting for myself but when Im really getting into a nice simple thump I dont see a need to take it further but then again sometimes I think it is needed to add some new dimesnions and get a bit more busy in a song. It all depends really

i think pocket is defined differently for each ugly and stinky combo.

does the pocket really care if you're a simple or not so simple player? hmm i dunno. to me, your pocket could be the size of a coin pocket on a pair of Levi's or the size of a pocket on a pair of JNCO's (hard cover book will fit in there). One gives you more room to play in and around the drummer than the other, but you and the stinky could be just as tight in either one.

any realize this thread is 2 years old? great one though

Not until you said something lol.

Not sure if I posted on this before but having played with a band for over a year now I've grown an opinion about this.

Honestly I don't worry too much about over-playing. I pretty much just worry about whether or not I am happy with the song and if the band is happy with what I am doing. My opinion is, you've got to be happy with what you are doing in order to do it right. but you also have to be willing to compromise. there's been times where I've played things that just don't fit but usually I will catch them before the rest of the band does (mainly becuase I don't think they listen to me very much). In the end, you've got to trust in yourself and what you want. If you feel you want to try something, then by all means, try it. If it doesn't work, the move on...if it works GREAT! You can't let fear hold you back. It's just like my quote says, fear gets in the way of people being original. Don't let it hold you back.

Onyx, I think the simple definition of the pocket is where the rhythm section (drums and bass) get all snuggly and become one. Now that doesn't mean they are playing the exact same notes or at all the exact same times. It's more like the two instruments don't exist and a new one called rhythm has replaced them. Everything each of them plays is complimentary to the other and they build a solid foundation for the rest of the music.

H

Okay here goes boss.

You have groups where the bass players are very understated ala U2 or Matchbox 20. And then there are groups where the bass players are right out front ala Primus or Rush. And then there are groups where both are true like Incubus. Now all of these groups are good. They all have their own sound. And their bass players all play perfectly for what they do.

So here is my point, finally:
Trust your ear. If it sounds too busy it is. If it sounds just right, it is. If you stop being just a bass player for a minute and open your ears, you will find what is right. That is the thing about bass players. We understand that we serve the music. Trust in that grasshopper.

The funny thing is: he was probably thinking am I under-playing.

I think the fact that you're worrying about overplaying, and keeping that in mind is what probably keeps you in check.

As far as my band, I like to think my bass lines are what the grooves need. My twanger is also very cool with giving me feedback about my lines. Open communication is a definite plus in my opinion.

My 2 cents:
I think some on this post have toched on this, but I don't think it has been fully explored.

I assume these are originals Slade?

What we have here is not a question of under/overplaying in a song but a question of space between notes and the groove/feel of the song it self only these two factors matter (IMHO) in the question of overplaying.

if there is space and the groove allows for it, go ahead and fill it. Among other things, that's our job, on the other hand if the song/feel/groove calls for a pause, to gain energy don't.

Then some songs/groups (not most) have been created to showcase the players in them, Rush, Primus and the like, so in those bands those guys play accordingly.

THe secret is knowing your place/job as a bass player at any given time during a song for the songs sake, not because your Joe B1tching Bass Player, to impress your peers or the people in the crowd

The guy watching you was probabbly taking notes, on how to be a good bass player anyway

There's so much here that's been said about groove, pocket. I really don't care about listening to guys - gals with lots of chops showin off, I wanna hear what they say with their heart and soul. The way they shape and color a song- cover or original. Who can judge that?? If you FEEL that what you play is right--then there's nothing to THINK about.

That's beautiful. Perfect way to say it.

I cheat the whole over-playing / under-playing system by writing the music for my band. If the bass line is out of place it's because someone else f'd it up.

I would also like to point out that everytime I read an interview with an accomplished bass player talking about how they consciously under-played, they're usually talking about my least favorite efforts from that players career. People should do what they want to do in the way that they feel it.

how do you feel ?- with my hands.  i just had ta say that...oops.
If the bass line is out of place it's because someone else f'd it up. excelent verbage - this is still a great thread... i played Sat night - no one there - after the first break some Dude showed up and one of the twangers knew him from before - he stayed and listened to the next set - made me self concious as hell about my playing and singing ; every thing was off , i played the right notes and the band played properly but- when he left we all sounded better - one frickin' guy in the room we were in and i felt different - my point is the flow the cosmic gooo - the pocket  over play or not - if it ain't right - well - man - it ain't right. it's such a strange thing is it not that we know precisely what we are talking about or know when we as players or the band as a whole are ON and there is no thought given to over or under playing but at the same time we find it hard to capture in words - or at least in less words than  i just used - man i sure can ramble on at 1 am - good nite my Ugly buddies...  

Well, I haven't had a chance to read everyone's responses, and I'm probably the worst person to address this, but all I can say is do what you feel is right for your own situation and don't worry about the rest. The way I see it, there's no such thing as over- or underplaying, there's just you and your bass laying down whatever you feel sounds best in your particular songs. That's what makes each band different. If all bassers played the same, music would be so boring (and I'd be out of a job!! ). Whatever flavor you add to your song is part of what makes your band and music unique. There's no sense in comparing yourself to the way others play!

Just my two cents; again, I just do my own crazy thing, so maybe I'm not the person to listen to!

IMO you're exactly the person to listen to.

Jaco made a career out of overplaying.

Just a side note.

It's all about the songwriting. Bassplayers are generally 20-33%
of the writing of a song, so it makes sense that you generally have to do what's good for the song. Some require more, some require less. The best bass players I can think of didn't always show off. They made the song sit solid. That's why they call us the backbone. In my opinion, it's usually the twanger's and croaker's role to show off. That's why we hate them so much. We're supposed to. THey took on a job that requires them to masturbate in public.