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"One more time... with FEELING!!"
Sat, 06/03/2006 - 1:01pm
In the recent 'Blues' thread, lots of people stressed the importance of playing 'with feeling'. It's been said that you can't play blues if you don't do it with feeling. Also that you can't play blues if you haven't 'lived' the blues. It was even suggested that you can't play blues if you haven't attained a certain age (tell that to Kenny Wayne Shepherd, Johnny Lang, or even Derek Trucks).
Well, I've seen 'musicians' with great articulation, but don't seem remotely interested in what they're playing. I've also seen 'musicians' with absolutely no chops whatsoever but lots of 'feeling'.
In my humble opinion, these two things are not mutually exclusive. I've auditioned for bands where the twanger wanted to teach me my bass lines. They were very technical lines... they weren't mine... they had no soul IN THE LEAST... and I had no feel for it at all. Sure, I could have done the lines, but WHY?? I passed on the gig. I, shortly thereafter, auditioned for a band where the singer / harp player could barely play or sing a note, but played everything with more feeling than possible. He'd almost cry when playing a slow blues, and during a shuffle, he strutted around the stage like the rebirth of the Great Muddy & Howlin' Stevie-Ray-Hendrix. It was almost painful to watch. I passed on that gig too.
No matter how much feeling you have for a style of music, if you can't express that feeling through the language of the style... it's gonna suck.
I think of it this way. Charles Bukowski wrote with an amazing amount of feeling. Even his apathy leaps off the page at you. He's not the most wordy of writers, but he does have an AMAZING command of the language. He, in my opinion, is so good at expressing what he's feeling with language that you don't even notice how well he's using the language. You almost get the impression that his language is as crude as the intention behind it.
So...what are your 'feelings' on the subject? (I would make this a poll, but there's too much middle ground there)
Sat, 06/03/2006 - 1:55pm
#2
Expresing your emotions and feelings through music is one of the most beautiful things you can do, but if your chops arnt up to a certain level then you wount be able to express them to their full potential. And if the chops are nice and tight I think it shows that the musician is really dedicated to his or her instrument and it makes it much easier to express their passion for the music and allows them to express it in a number of different fashions to.
I tried to explain whats in my head but I'm not sure if its clear, feel free to pitch in :p
Sun, 06/04/2006 - 4:39am
#3
Bukowski
Wow, I thought I was the only one who read everything of his I can get my hands on.
Using CB as an example, he wrote about the things that were right around him. He didn't tell tales about far off lands or outer space. Crazy g/fs, his pets, his landlords, bar fights, his cars, groupies are what he wrote about.
Bukowski never gets more han 40 miles from his home in his writing.
Same with Robert Johnson.
I think the gist here is to know what your scope is.
Where you fit in musically.
If you can't feel the blues, don't play it.
I've heard a lot of sterile chops from people playing outside their particular realm of interest just keeping up.
I guess the best example of playing without feeling is some of the music played by marching bands.
Just knowing the patterns doesn't make an ugly a blues bassist.
You've got to be able to walk in the shoes so to speak.
Not only the chops, but the timing and inflection of the notes is every bit as important.
Knowing the lyrics and understanding why the song was written.
Expressing your interpretation of a blues standard, not necessarily Willie Dixon's.
You may have to learn Willie's parts to get to your own version, but if you're not making the song your own during a performance, then you're wasting your's and the audience's time.
That's what I mean about feeling music.
Sun, 06/04/2006 - 8:14am
#4
My, It should be a combination!
I agree that it dosnt matter how much feeling you'v got if you dont have the chops, but then again, having the chops and not having the feeling will make you a Blues musician?
I dont think so. This is quite an emotional tipe of music, for gods sakes, The name of the genere is a word used to describe depression!
What is the point of having the best blues playing skills in the world if you dont feel them? If thats the point then it's nothing more than a acoustic progression, and my friends, music is not that. Art has always been acompained by feeling, actually, it is one of the greatest means of expressing it. Music is one of the most involving tipes of art, it being a set of vibrations that surround the liestener, ergo meaning that it is an involving expression of feelings.
So if your playing the blues,Feel the blues I say!
Sun, 06/04/2006 - 8:25am
#5
oldfclefer wrote:
Bukowski
Same with Robert Johnson.
I think the gist here is to know what your scope is.
Where you fit in musically.
If you can't feel the blues, don't play it.
I've heard a lot of sterile chops from people playing outside their particular realm of interest just keeping up.
I guess the best example of playing without feeling is some of the music played by marching bands.
Just knowing the patterns doesn't make an ugly a blues bassist.
You've got to be able to walk in the shoes so to speak.
Not only the chops, but the timing and inflection of the notes is every bit as important.
Knowing the lyrics and understanding why the song was written.
Expressing your interpretation of a blues standard, not necessarily Willie Dixon's.
You may have to learn Willie's parts to get to your own version, but if you're not making the song your own during a performance, then you're wasting your's and the audience's time.
That's what I mean about feeling music.
I couldn't agree more. Well put OFC!
Sun, 06/04/2006 - 10:34am
#6
i don't think i'm getting what your trying to say or what your trying to elicit from the group uncle fat... - let me respond to a few ideas i think your getting at.
a) if your saying that you must have the right feel to properly express the type of music? yes
b) do you need proper chops to play the music with feeling? yes - it, helps
c) can you have the technical chops and not play with feeling? oh yes!
d) can you have the feeling and not the chops and still play it right? well you can play it somewhat - yes (better this scenario than the reverse above)
i'm not slighting ANY of the musicians i use as examples here so (no flame pls) but...
John Lee Hooker for example - i thought The Hook could not play a damn - but he had that thing - what ever it is. and it just made sense Blues wise. so he stayed where his style was best suited.
Al Dimeola, man he can play - are you kidding? he is an astounding musician... BUT the Blues just ain't his thing.
the harp player from Blues Traveler - he has great chops - but, to me. that thousand note per bar crap ruins the fell of the Blues. he's talented but it's not the feel i look for...
chops is chops. practice swings are a great thing before you hit the ball - so get your rudiments down, but also listen and learn for feel, (or inflection, timing, behind the groove, in front of ... things like that)
i like songs that have that Louisiana back-beat to them. they have ... like... both straight 1/8 notes and swing 1/8 notes in them in the same song - at the same time - way cool.
a popular example would be Little Feat's Dixie Chicken - another example is The Tiki Bar is open by John Hiatt - the dual beat on that is very pronounced. i am offer these tunes up as examples of multiple feels in the same tune, because
...talking about music is like dancing about architecture... that's not my quote - i think Elvis Costello said it... -
ps man this thead can really be expanded - open Pandoras box whydoncha - WOW i'll shut up now
Sun, 06/04/2006 - 12:58pm
#7
One point I have to agree with is that the more chops ya got, the more tools you have to express yourself. I think that expression is hugely important regardless of style. But at the same time expression is not necessarily what you do or don't play, it is absolutely about feel. I've watched guys play one note solos that I knew were capable of much more, but the FEEL was there. Again, it comes down to the fact that we play music. Music is art (or that's what we try for) and therefore there is no right or wrong per se, just pleasing and unpleasing. I play music for me, to entertain myself, express myself, to please myself. If others can derive the same or similar enjoyment from it, then all the better.
Sun, 06/04/2006 - 4:10pm
#8
DocLow wrote:
My, It should be a combination!
I agree that it dosnt matter how much feeling you'v got if you dont have the chops, but then again, having the chops and not having the feeling will make you a Blues musician?
I dont think so. This is quite an emotional tipe of music, for gods sakes, The name of the genere is a word used to describe depression!
QUOTE]
Right on the money, Doc. All the bright, shiny chops in the world won't make you a blues player. But, without at least the basic skills, you won't stand a snowball's chance in Tahiti of getting your message across to your audience. It's kind of like cooking up some good gumbo. Everybody starts with the same ingredients but not all the results are gumbo. You have to find the right combination.
Uncle Fat wrote:
In my humble opinion, these two things are not mutually exclusive. I've auditioned for bands where the twanger wanted to teach me my bass lines. They were very technical lines... they weren't mine... they had no soul IN THE LEAST... and I had no feel for it at all. Sure, I could have done the lines, but WHY?? I passed on the gig. I, shortly thereafter, auditioned for a band where the singer / harp player could barely play or sing a note, but played everything with more feeling than possible. He'd almost cry when playing a slow blues, and during a shuffle, he strutted around the stage like the rebirth of the Great Muddy & Howlin' Stevie-Ray-Hendrix. It was almost painful to watch. I passed on that gig too.
I parted with the first band opportunity I had after a 32 year hiatus for basically the same stuff, UF. Every time a new song was brought up, the first question was Whose version are we going to learn?. My answer to that was always Why not do our own? which was always met with dead silence. I was setting at home one day trying to decide what to do about this (stay until I find something better or just leave and go on) when the phone rang. To my relief, it was our lead twanger telling me that they didn't think I was fitting in and were opening auditions up for another bass player.
Bongoslade wrote:
he has great chops - but, to me. that thousand note per bar crap ruins the fell of the Blues.
+1,000,000 Speed has its place but it isn't chops in and of itself.
Mon, 06/05/2006 - 1:25am
#9
Bongoslade wrote:
...talking about music is like dancing about architecture... that's not my quote - i think Elvis Costello said it... -
Laurie Anderson said it too -I think..
And yes, the marching band example of chops without feeling was a good one... that explained what I don't like about military music.
Mon, 06/05/2006 - 4:14am
#10
Bongoslade wrote:
...talking about music is like dancing about architecture... that's not my quote - i think Elvis Costello said it..
I thought it was a Zappa quote, but it doesn't matter. Point well taken.
Mon, 06/05/2006 - 10:57am
#11
ya know - it's funny that some people refer to marching bands and military music as an example of no feel. that may be true of some marching bands
but when i was a kid - i dug the marching bands in a parade - especially if they were marching in time with just the Drum sections playing
and i confess - i dig John Philip Sousa , some spirited stuff there, one of my favorite TV theme songs is the opening music from McHale's Navy
but hey, i like mayo and diced onions on my hot dog - whadoiknow...i digressed most egregiously- ADHD can be fun :p
oh yea -
the BLUES is the sh!t - that's what i know for sure
I think you're right. The way you're putting it makes it hard to argue that point.
I can't come up with a good example of something with articulation/skill that lacks soul, but here you have a guy with lots of feeling but, eh.... let's say that he lacks a bit in the chops (or english langauge) department, poor soul: http://www.rezar.net/audio/mp3/Rezar_-_Suffer_Through_The_Pain.wma
He charges 25$ for his album btw.... :eek:
Anyone that has something without soul?
UOF #3